Help me light this scene - 16 person group shot

[Fabrice_Grover]

I am doing a 16 person corporate group shot in this hotel lobby on Wednesday. The attached photo was taken handheld at 1/10sec f4 ISO 400 with a Canon 17-40mm f4L lens @ 19mm on a Canon 40D. 1/10sec is really too slow, and I'd rather shoot at ISO 100 so that we can make a large print from this. I'd like to shoot it at 1/60 f/8 ISO 100.

Any thoughts on how to light it? I will be renting all the lighting gear. I was thinking of putting a large soft box behind and above me, and then lighting the back wall with two spots with 40 degree grids, or else using a strip light for the back wall. Ambient light won't really enter the equation since it will be more than 4 stops below the output from the soft box, right? If I can avoid it, I'd rather not complicate this too much by placing more lights camera left or right.

I'm used to working with available light, so any advice would be very much appreciated. Suggestions on arranging the 16 people in this space are welcome too. Right now, I'm thinking something relatively informal, but still business-like and "action oriented." Perhaps have some people sitting in the chairs and on the couch, others sitting on the arm rests, others leaning against the chair-backs and against the chair backs. I was thinking of having some people leaning against the pillars, but I think that might make the back row too wide. I want this to be a unified team-shot -- the posing should be relaxed but present and strong.

Any thoughts?

Many thanks,
Fabrice

[DougAxford]

It's a bit tough but I'll try to help where I can. First, you need to solve the mix of ambient and flash. The choice is either 1) shoot ambient and WB for it, 2) shoot flash and drown the ambient or 3) try to combine both (my choice). If you combine both, you need to filter your flash with a warming filter so that it goes from 5500K to somewhere near 3500K. A few hundred Kelvin is close enough. Unless you modify ambient or flash, you'll have mixed light that is going to be a huge problem in PP. Shooting Raw will NOT solve this unless you want to try combining shots in PP and even I won't try that with 16 people.

My first thought would be to use ambient as much as possible. Move ISO up to 600, shoot at f:2.8 at 1/20 or 1/30 on a tripod. If you want to rent, I'd rent a 16-35 2.8 or a 20 2.8. Last time I rented, a lens was only $25. That will give you the extra stop you need. You do not need to shoot at 100 ISO for quality. You should be fine, even at 800, but if you can keep it to 400/600 range you should not see any difference with the 40D. If you really are concerned, you could rent a 5D or D3 to utilize the bigger sensor. With 16 people, I would go that route if you are planning on selling 16x20 or larger. The 5D and 40D I feel are on par in many cases, but larger groups and larger sizes favor the 5D or D3 for sure.

I would use a 580 or even less powerful flash, as long as it is full coverage to 20mm lens (that's maybe 28 mm equiv. on 40D) Get a warming filter (Rosco gel will even do) and get the flash as close as possible to the WB of the available light. The flash will be simply filling in their faces and eyes, do NOT overpower. You want a flash reading the same as ambient or even slightly less.

I would do some test shots and get the WB set on manual or use a Color Parrot to get WB close. I would not shoot AWB. If you're comfortable with raw, it's probably much safer here, but still get your WB as close as you can.

Softbox is great but then you've got to add a warming filter to the flash which is not easy. You'll also have larger flash problems on glasses than you will with a portable flash for very little gain in quality. If your flash is filling in, there should be no objectionable shadows. Also, make sure your flash is on manual, up 5 feet higher than the camera and I'd have the camera lower than what your sample shot shows.

I'm sure that you will get lots of other opinions. A year ago, I would have overpowered the ambient with flash, but with cameras being so fantastic at higher ISO, it simply is not needed in this case and I think you want to make use of a very beautiful background. If your ambient was a few stops darker, I'd have to go with all flash. I'd do everything in my power to make use of a fantastic area.

Posing: I'd get rid of the table and move the side chairs back so they are even with the couch. I'm not keen on people leaning on columns, but it would depend upon the dynamics of the group. You're not telling us much about who they are so it's difficult to advise.

Doug

[Fabrice_Grover]

Hi Doug,

Thanks very much for your thoughtful response. I feel much more comfortable using fill flash rather than overpowering the ambient light -- I thought this would be necessary in order to get a clean image to make a large print, but I was worried about the setup time required to light the scene from scratch (not to mention the additional expense of renting multiple flash heads and light modifiers, and the stress of figuring it all out "on the day", an hour before the group showed up).

As per your suggestions, I will shoot at ISO 600-800 and use my flash for fill, positioned 5 ft above the camera.

In terms of light modifiers, what would you suggest? I have a Gary Fong Lightsphere that I often use on camera to bounce light off ceilings. I did not check to see how high the ceiling is in this lobby (at the time I was thinking "soft box") but my guess is it's quite high, and if the flash is 5 ft above me, I think pointing it straight onto the group might be better.

I have pointed the lightsphere straight-on to a 4 person group (without the inverted dome in place), and found the quality of the light to be pretty nice. However I did notice that the light fell off quite quickly and I had to use a second unit to light the back row of the group.

Or would you recommend an umbrella?

I have the 580 EXII. The flash coverage is rated as being from 24 to 105mm (I'm not sure if this takes into account the 1.6X multiplier on the 40D). According to the manual, dropping down the built-in wide panel expands the range to 14mm.

I also have the orange inverted dome for the lightsphere. I have never actually used it, but I imagine I could use it to warm up the faces and bring them closer to the colour temperature of the background. I kind of like the idea of getting the faces "neutral" and the background warm, but I imagine this is risky with the 580EX II as the light may not hit the faces in a uniform manner. If the light is closer to the colour of the room, it will just blend in, and I can always warm up the background in post-processing, right?

I always shoot RAW, so I'm comfortable with that workflow.

Finally, I have a Canon 17-55 f2.8 IS. It's currently in the shop for repairs. The IS acts up when I try to focus while simultaneously zooming in or out, but since I will be shooting at a fixed focal length, this shouldn't be a problem on the day and I could call the shop tomorrow and ask them if I can borrow it on Wednesday (I went to check it on Friday and it was still acting up when I zoomed in or out, but otherwise working well).

If I'm shooting b/w 17 and 20mm, do you think that shooting at f2.8 will really give enough depth of field for a 16 person group shot? I understand that a wide angle doesn't need to be stopped down as much as a normal focal length, but I've never shot a group shot wide open on this lens (my experience shooting group shots is at weddings, and I usually shoot the groups outdoors if possible. In a church, I shoot at ISO 800 and point the flash at the ceiling and dial in +1 exp compensation -- the light coming through the lightsphere helps with fill, and the curch background usually benefits from the bounce off the ceiling).

In terms of posing, I am indeed thinking of striking the table in the middle. I was also thinking of moving the couch forward a bit and getting a few people to stand behind it. If I have 4 sitting on the front edge of the couch + one sitting against each arm of the couch (6 on the couch), + 4 people standing behind it, that's 10. I could then group three people around each chair - one sitting, one leanging against the arm, one standing behind it with a hand on the back of the chair.

This way I avoid having anyone leaning on the pillars.

Thanks again for your thoughts. This is helping me plan the shoot in my mind and is very helpful.

Fabrice

[Richard_Coyle]

Although I'm spoiled by the Nikon CLS system, I may be able to offer some suggestions that are relevant to any lighting including your Canon system. First, with the couch so close to the wall, you'll likely have shadow problems as you obviously considered in your backlighting concern mentioned initially. A solution could be moving everything out from the wall as far as possible, and still maintaining the intimacy of the setting. Also, lighting with umbrellas from the sides will help substantially, even for fill lighting. Using 580 flash units should be good, since you can easily obtain the appropriate filters for modifying the light temperture as Doug recommends. I also agree with his preference to mix the lighting. If you haven't already accessed the Strobist.com website, he has excellent tutorials on this very issue, and lots of other excellent advice regarding shoe mounted flash.

While I like Doug's suggestions overall, there are some differences from my perspective. From an equipment standpoint, I'm not familiar with the ISO performance of the 40D, but I shoot the Nikon D300, which seems to have very similar noise characteristics from tests comparing both. From my experience, I'd sure be more comfortable shooting at no higher than 400 ISO if possible, and also stop down at least to f5.6 to obtain optimal sharpness out of the lens and for depth of field focus. From my experience shooting groups at f2.8, focus can be a problem. You may also want to keep some of your surroundings in focus, and that won't happen wide open. If you need to shoot at a higher ISO, follow Doug's advice of renting a 5D or even a Nikon D3, which would open up an entirely new range of acceptable ISOs, including 3200 and even possibly 6400. But with the D3 you have the problems of all the other equipment to go along, so you're probably better off just to consider the 5D if the 40D can't handle it. Again, as Doug suggests, do a lot of experimenting beforehand to see what works, not only for lighting, but also ISO and f-stop settings for the print sizes you need. Good luck on your project!

[Fabrice_Grover]

Hi Richard,

Thanks very much for your thoughts. I can move the couch forward a little bit, but unfortunately this whole area is right next to the entrance to the hotel; if I move the furniture too far forward, we will be impeding traffic to and from the entrance. (the light you see coming from the left is from windows to the left and right of the front door, and from the opening of the door itself onto the street -- there is also light coming from big windows behind the camera -- I shot the scene at 5pm, the time that I will be shooting on Wednesday).

I had the same initial reaction as you to the suggestion of shooting wide open (f2.8). That being said, I entered my focal length (19mm) and aperture (2.8) and subject distance (~10ft) into this Online Depth of Field Calculator at and got the following results:

Subject distance 10 ft
Depth of field Near limit 6.89 ft
Far limit 18.2 ft
Total 11.3 ft
In front of subject 3.1 ft (27%)
Behind subject 8.2 ft (73%)
Hyperfocal distance 22.1 ft
Circle of confusion 0.019 mm

So it seems that it would just fit. The people and the back wall would probably all be in focus. I'd feel more comfortable stopping down a bit too (I have to keep reminding myself that 1.6X 19mm is actually 30mm in full-frame terms, and f2.8 at 30mm feels pretty wide for a group shot)... If I shot at f5.6, I could use my existing lens -- If I rent the 5D, the 17-40L f4 is compatible with that. My 17-55 f2.8 IS only works with the EF-S mount on 1.6X cameras. (the 17-55 f2.8 IS might be sharper at 5.6 than the 17-40L, but that's a quibble and I think my shutter speed/ISO/light is more of a concern here than lens sharpness).

I am probably going to rent another 3 580 EX II's with warming gels and I may get some umbrellas too... if I position one to the left and one to the right of the group and then have one behind the couch pointing up towards the wall and shoot the whole scene at ISO 400 or 600 and f5.6 and let the camera determine the appropriate amount of fill, I ought to be OK, right? In terms of lighting ratios, I'm thinking of leaving everything 1:1 and then just dialing in + 1 EV on the individual flash heads as needed.

One more question. What would be the ideal placement for the umbrellas camera left and right? And if I do use umbrellas there, should I use one on my "key" fill light as well (the 580 above my camera)? I guess in this case there really is no key, since I am just looking to fill-in the shadows and going for even illumination. I'm just thinking that even with the wide-angle "diffuser", and even if the flash is only going to be giving some fill, the light will be pretty harsh front-on.

Finally, (thinking aloud here), I think the 40D is really clean at ISO 400 or even 600 and I know I can make a pretty big print from a 10MP file, so I think I'm going to stick with that. 2MP is not that great a jump, even if the quality of the noise is somewhat smoother on the 5D (I'm not sure that it is). I would love to use a Nikon D3 at ISO 800 or even 1600, but it would cost me $250 to rent one for the day, and I'm only hired to shoot this one group shot and 13 headshots of the staff afterwards.

Thanks again,
Fabrice

[Noel_Carboni]

Good advice above.

Just for good measure, I suggest you shoot one or several frames without any flash. From the image you posted it looks like there's a bunch of nice, diffuse ambient light coming from all around. Of course you need to watch your exposure time, so you'll probably end up using a fairly high ISO.

For either flash or non-flash, I suggest you choose either ISO 400 or 800, rather than a value in between. I've read where the interpolated values sometimes don't come out as clean as shots taken at a "real" ISO stop. You could move up to ISO 1600 in a pinch - the 40D is that good with noise.

When you get the images, if you're not restricted from doing so please post a flash and non-flash shot here. I know I'd love to see a comparison of the two in that setting.

-Noel

[DougAxford]

I would not use umbrellas. I use them in almost everything, but group shots of this kind are not the best due to huge problems with reflections on glasses. What you want is even lighting and umbrellas suffer from fall-off as much as anything. If I was lighting a group like this without any ambient light, I would have two lights positioned as close to the center as possible (right at the camera, but higher), then point one to the far right, even well past the right side of the photo and one pointed to the far left, equally past the edge of the photo. Aim both up bit (15 degrees) definitely NOT straight ahead. So, I would position the lights as described and think of the flash as fill only. I don't think of either flash or ambient as 'key' lights, they are both equal more or less and i think of a 'key' light as being used to create depth with highlight and shadows. There should be no objectionable shadows on the wall. If there is, your flash is too strong.

This will give you exactly even lighting across the entire area, side to side and front to back if the lights are positioned correctly. I use this same lighting to do large groups all the time. By putting both lights close together, you greatly reduce the problems with cross shadows that most people have with lights on either side of the group. Simply keep adjusting the light angles until the center is exactly the same as the sides. Move the lights angled up until the light is even from front row to back. It looks totally wrong but it works perfectly. You simply have to understand the theory of light, fall-off and then it makes sense.

If you have a day similar to the sample you shot, you simply do not need lights at the sides, let the ambient do the work for you. Basically, as I said, I'd tell yourself that you are shooting with ambient light only, then using gelled flash to fill-in the darker faces & eyes.

I don't use EV settings on flash. Sorry, everything I do is strictly manual. I'm a control freak. When it's set manually, I know exactly what flash output I'm going to get every time. I guess the thing I forgot about is that to do the set-up as I've described, you'll need a flash meter. I assumed you have one, but you just can't get the light even without metering a few times.

I would not put a light behind the group. From my experience, it simply going to blow out one area and look bad. You've got lots of ambient light for fill.

I was pondering the 2.8 issue. I figured in my head that you'd be fine with a great lens on DOF. If you want to go to f:4, it will help DOF, but you've got to move ISO higher and you're trading one problem for another. The 40D is barely good to 800 ISO IMHO on a group shot. Higher ISO on most shots is great, but lots of small faces is a problem with noise showing. I hadn't heard about mid-ISO problems and Noel could be right. Doesn't make sense with electronics to me, but you might want to test. I've done lots of ISO 3200 on the 40D, it's the small faces that worry me. FWIW, I'd shoot 5 at 2.8 and 5 at f:4. Personally, I'd still rent the 20 mm 2.8, it should be sharper than your zoom, but that's theory only, I've never tested or shot with the 20 mm. If they are only going to 8x10s, forget the rental lens.

The real test here is everyone will want to put too much power in the flash to be safer with DOF and exposure. If the wall or room was darker, I'd be going that route. The test is to balance the lighting with your flash and go from a standard so-so shot to a fantastic shot. It is a challenge that I'd go for, but i have to advise that you'll need to make sure your gels are correct, your focus is preset and on manual, your flashes are preset and on manual (partial power). I think any softness can be corrected in post processing, but mixed lighting is not so easy.

I would not allow the camera to autofocus. You have the DOF info (good for you on looking it up) simply set the focus point to the optimum. Don't forget that the front point is center front but the back point is the back on the farthest edge where someone is standing, not simply the back row in the center.

Lots to think about. If I were shooting it, I'd use the 40D unless you're sure they will want large prints. I agree with your thoughts on the lobby. It will be busy enough and too many distractions for you and the group, you'll need to keep focus in many ways.

Good luck.

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