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Re: Help me light this scene - 16 person group shot
  #22  
Old 03-26-2008, 07:59 PM
Richard_Coyle Richard_Coyle is offline
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Re: Help me light this scene - 16 person group shot

Fabrice is out doing the shoot, or maybe finished by now, and we all wish him well. In the meantime, I have a question for you, Doug. Your method of utilizing two flash heads centered and angled to the sides is something I've always had cause shadows if the subjects are too close to a back wall. That's why I use them from the sides if possible. The only time it works is if it's truly "fill" light to remove the shadows on the face, and isn't strong enough to create shadows behind. I even have a Newton Camera Bracket set up for two flash heads spread about a foot apart of center for this purpose. And that works for single portraits as well for full flash lighting, but I use either umbrellas or softboxes for groups, and sometimes even individuals. Just my preference.

As for the problems with flash from the sides and reflections in glasses, unless the subjects are facing the flash instead of the camera, the light will be at an angle and not a problem. Have you had trouble with this approach? If the light is from the center, then I have the individual turn either head or body as a slight angle until the reflection isn't present.

Finally, as I said in my initial post, I'm spoiled by the Nikon CLS system, which produces great results in most situations without all the trial and error of shooting manual. Will be interested in your additional feedback when Fabrice reports on his shoot!
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Last edited by Richard_Coyle : 03-26-2008 at 08:01 PM.
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Re: Help me light this scene - 16 person group shot
  #23  
Old 03-26-2008, 08:45 PM
DougAxford DougAxford is offline
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Re: Help me light this scene - 16 person group shot

Hi Richard,

My preference with groups is to use umbrellas when possible for schools and sports. The reality in this shot is that I'm assuming that a Board is older people and many will have glasses. Reflections from umbrellas are a huge problem. Since both shots are using flash as a fill light only, the shadows should be minimal. Actually on the second shot, there should be none visible because the background is so far back and fairly bright.

I use the same set-up regularly with both lights almost side by side and pointed out, away from the group. The shadows have always been far less than having the lights 6 to10' apart and pointed straight ahead. Actually, that's why I modified the lighting system years ago. When we shot school groups, the cross lighting from lights 10' apart for a class of 30 was causing huge problems. I had to be careful all the time because a student would be in row two, right between two others in row one and if they leaned back a bit, their face was in the shadows.

I haven't thought about lights from the far sides - 20' apart. Is that what you mean Richard? The theory would mean more shadows from how I am imagining it. Just not sure exactly what you mean, but then I've had lots of people unable to envision how I do it.

I had to look up Nikon CLS, since I shoot Canon. I prefer Nikon flashes though, am I forgiven?
As I posted, I'm an old SOB and I have to shoot manual on everything. It took me years to trust auto focus and even then, I still don't trust it but it's better than my old eyes, especially with a crop factor camera. I almost never use flash on ETTL unless I need a quick grab shot at a wedding. I have experimented with Canon multi flash and I would never use it again.

For this type of shot, I like things preset. It's from years of making mistakes I guess.

Doug
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Re: Help me light this scene - 16 person group shot
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Old 03-28-2008, 05:47 AM
Fabrice_Grover Fabrice_Grover is offline
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Re: Help me light this scene - 16 person group shot

OK, so... all things considered, it went pretty well. I rented a 2000W power pack, 3 heads, 2 umbrellas, and a softbox. Since I was shooting down onto the group from the ladder, I ended up positioning two bare heads at the right and left of the lobby entrance and pointing them up and in towards the scene and bouncing them off the ceiling. I was getting some weird cross shadows doing this, so just as the group was arriving I switched the two heads from full power on their own channels in differential mode (A:B) to the same channel (channel A) and then I setup a third strobe in a shoot-through umbrella and positioned it in front of the group at the foot of the ladder, in the center of the scene, also pointing up towards the ceiling. I put this third strobe in channel B at reduced power (either 250 or 500W, I can't remember).

The tweaked the angle of the bare strobes a bit and then the light was pretty uniform. I still had to bump my ISO up to 640 in order to achieve a barely adequate shutter speed of 1/30th at f4. I was shooting at 19mm on my 17-40 f4 L lens with the Canon 40D, and I wished my 17-55 IS f2.8 had been available because I could have really used the image stabilizer. I didn't want to go any higher in terms of ISO, and according to my back LCD panel, 1/40th was a bit too dark. I didn't want to underexpose and push in post because I was afraid those tiny little faces might get smothered in noise.

I did a few tighter shots so that the faces wouldn't be so small. This was the best one in terms of expressions:



I backed off a bit to get more of the size and depth of the architecture and the colours of the coffee shop in the background.



I combined these two frames in Photoshop where I did some local-contrast USM on the floor to make it more shiny. I then and darkened the edges to shape the light around the group.



Here is a closeup of the center portion of the final image where you can see the expressions and the light on the faces.



Once we had the group shot, I asked everyone to push their scheduled sitting by 20 minutes to give myself enough time to setup the soft-box and figure out how to light the headshots.

I decided to use the ambient light of the coffee shop at the far end of the lobby as my background. I setup my 70-200 f2.8 IS on a tripod a few feet in front of the entrance and set up the soft box and reflector about half way between the entrance and the coffee shop. I wanted to shoot at 200mm to throw the background out of focus. But I couldn't get the power on the powerpack low enough to use the ambient exposure. Even at 250 W with the variator turned all the way down and a second head plugged into the power pack pointed away from the scene to dump even more power out of it, I still had way too much light from the softbox and the background was almost pitch-black. I was already running 5 mins past the first scheduled headshot sitting, so I turned the softbox away from the posing chair and bounced the light from the softbox onto one of the reflective pillars along the lobby wall. At full power, there was just enough light bouncing off the shiny pillar and onto my subject to shoot at f5, 1/50th of a second @ ISO 800. And that was slow enough to allow the light from the coffee shop to come through.

























The exposure on most of these was pushed a bit in Lightroom, usually between +.30 and + .6. I chose my favourite from each sequence, white-balanced and cropped in Lightroom. I will probably smoothen out the skin a bit and maybe get rid of the second catchlight. Also, these are my picks, not the clients'. They haven't seen the photos yet and may very well choose other faves from each sequence.

Thanks very much for engaging with me on this one and for the advice, the suggestions, and the food for thought -- my heart sank when the original location (that beautiful hotel lobby), fell through and I realized where I would be shooting. In the end it worked out ok.

Fabrice

Last edited by Fabrice_Grover : 03-28-2008 at 05:51 AM.
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Re: Help me light this scene - 16 person group shot
  #25  
Old 03-28-2008, 09:40 AM
DougAxford DougAxford is offline
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Re: Help me light this scene - 16 person group shot

Shot #3 of the group is very close to what I had envisioned. I would do some PS work and get the desk covered with the tree that shows in the other photos - that should be very easy to do. Lighting on the group looks near perfect to me. The shadows are pretty much gone, so you've done a great job of balancing the lights. Congrats.

I'm off to an appt. - gotta rush.

Doug
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Re: Help me light this scene - 16 person group shot
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Old 03-28-2008, 10:45 AM
KevinStecyk KevinStecyk is online now
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Re: Help me light this scene - 16 person group shot

Congratulations Fabrice! Everything turned out well in the end.
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Re: Help me light this scene - 16 person group shot
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Old 03-28-2008, 05:24 PM
DougAxford DougAxford is offline
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Re: Help me light this scene - 16 person group shot

Oh ya, the thing I said about not using umbrellas because all the old folks will have glasses - guess I was wrong. I was thinking corporate executives.

Anyway, great job.

Last edited by DougAxford : 03-28-2008 at 05:37 PM.
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Re: Help me light this scene - 16 person group shot
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Old 03-29-2008, 03:03 PM
Richard_Coyle Richard_Coyle is offline
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Re: Help me light this scene - 16 person group shot

Fabrice
Great work on this! You were inventive and flexible enough to achieve excellent results! Makes old guys like me think about re-evaluating my traditional approaches to life!

And a quick response to Doug regarding our side conversation about side vs straight flash. It's not a matter of either/or but a matter of what combinations work, like Fabrice was able to achieve with his flexible approach. And glad you like Nikon flash! The newest CLS wireless TTL shooting is really super. With the newly released RadioPopper P1 for radio frequency instead of infared wireless, it's opening up even more options for wireless TTL flash with Nikon's CLS system.
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