Help me light this scene - 16 person group shot

[Fabrice_Grover]

Thanks very much Doug.

A few questions...

If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting two bare flash heads (580 EX IIs in my case) positioned above the camera, pointing 15 degrees upwards (almost parallel to the floor -- angled just slightly upwards) and positioned almost exactly 180 degrees from one another, facing almost straight out towards camera right and camera left? I have actually never shot a scene where the off-camera flash was not triggered by the on-camera unit (master/slave), so this is new to me. If I rent two additional flash heads, I imagine I could turn the flash output off for the flash on the hotshoe and still use it to trigger the other two wireless slaves.

My frame of reference is a wedding... if this situation came up impromptu at a wedding where I didn't have the extra flash heads or the time to prep (and where I knew the shot would only end up being blown up large enough to fill an album spread if it got used at all), I'd point the lightsphere-clad flash up towards the ceiling (maybe angled forward just a bit), dial in +1 EV on the flash to compensate for the high ceiling, set the camera to ISO 400 and try it at f2.8 and f4, then try the same at ISO 800 and chimp to see how the ambient light mixed with the flash. I'd shoot in aperture priority mode and let the camera figure out the shutter speed and flash power. If the camera chose too fast a shutter speed (which I know would mean more flash power and therefore less ambient light), I might switch to manual and set the camera to 1/30, especially if I was using the IS on the wide end of my zoom. I would do a few with no flash. My guess is the shot at ISO 800 with the lightsphere modified flash pointing straight up (some light coming through the front) would work well at f2.8 and f4, but in post I might wish I had locked it down on a tripod so I could use the ISO 400 shot... I agree that small faces look better at ISO 400 on the 40D. Anyways, I know this is not scientific, but this is the way I'd approach the scene at a wedding.

Given that I have some time to plan here and that this is a corporate shoot, I want to do it "right." If I had done this without asking for assistance, my first impulse would have been to set the camera to manual (1/30 sec f2.8 or f4, ISO 400) but leave the 580 EX II flashes on auto so that they determine the exact amount of fill required in order to achieve the exposure set on the camera. Are you suggesting I switch the flash heads to manual as well? If so, could you walk me through how you would meter this scene? I would be renting the light meter and could use some tips on how to meter the flash output, if you think that's really the way to go (vs setting my camera exposure manually and then leaving the flash heads on auto and dialing in some compensation as required). Are you thinking that one flash may end up producing more power than the other, resulting in uneven distribution of light across the scene? I would think that the characteristics of the room being as irregular as they are, equal power from each flash head may not = even light distribution on the group (this is essentially a hallway with the couch and the chairs close to the entrance and lots more empty space camera right). But I also imagine that if you know what you're doing you can control the individual flash output more precisely in manual mode and get the light hitting the scene balanced just right. Any tips on how to do this would be very much appreciated.

How would you suggest I determine the proper gel for the flash heads? Do the gels come in kits of varying intensities? In the shot I posted above, the camera pegged the white balance at 3650K, which seems about right. Given that temperature, can I predetermine the intensity of the filter I should put on the flash head to warm it up (I’m assuming the flash heads are around 5500K)? Do you ultimately just keep trying different filter intensities on the flash heads until you see the right colour on the back of the camera?

The 20mm f2.8 is $25/day from my local rental place, so I may just leave the 17-55 f2.8 IS at the repair shop and rent the prime. The curving horizontal lines along the back wall are rather distracting (and so is the vertical perspective distortion), so I may run the RAW file through DXO Optics afterwards for its geometric corrections.

Thanks again for all the help,
Fabrice

[DougAxford]

You certainly are putting a lot of thought into this and I congratulate you on that. Too many just seem to shoot and see the problems after.

If this were a wedding, I'd use a single light and try to get the flash to cover the entire shot as best possible. I would then adjust the exposure in PS to darken the center and lighten the sides. Most weddings, you don't have time to fuss around like you do here.

After reading your second post talking about so much window light coming in, I'd guess that your camera reading of 3650K may be too low. It appears that the chairs are too cool in the shot and I think the lamps and the gold wall are influencing the reading. The window light should be closer to 5500 unless there are shears on the window, but then again, everything in the room is very warm, so you're getting a lot of reflected light. Hmmm. My guess would be to aim for 4000K or maybe a bit higher to 4500K. It's one of those things that I hate to advise because I need to be there to see the light. I'm just thinking that 4200 rather than 3400 would be safer for the gels for a flash fill since they're going more directly than bouncing. Sorry, I can't be more exact. I would ask the store for a set of gels that will get you in the 4200 range and a set in the 3400 range and test. be sure to get one person in your shot (better if they are holding a grey card) so that you can judge real effect better. Our eyes can easily play tricks with walls and furniture.

To try to answer your metering question: I use a wireless trigger to fire the flashes. I simply walk through the scene a few times and have an assistant move the flashes until I get an even reading. I take readings at 5 horizontal points; center, far ends and in between. Keep moving the lights until they are perfectly even. Now meter at the knees of the front row and the heads of the back row and move lights up & down until they're perfect. I always have the lights set at the same power and on manual. With this set-up, you should be able to power down a fair way on the 580. My 580 is out on a shoot right now, but I'll try to get a quick reading when it gets back. I've also found with my meter that flash reading are not correct when the ambient light is close to the flash value, so what i do is set the shutter speed up high on the meter to rule out ambient when doing flash readings. Before you do a flash test, you also want to check your ambient reading to make sure it is close to what your test shot showed.

I didn't answer your question about the Fong dong. At 30', a lightsphere will not make any difference in light quality IMHO. At 6' yes, just physics of width of light source vs distance. Maybe Doug Kerr can give you a technical answer on that one.

I think you need to have plan A, B and C for this shot. I'm making suggestions that you are not familiar with and that worries me. I've done it hundreds of times but you need to test the lights out hours or days ahead and be prepared to go to plan B if it doesn't work for you. My plan B would be a single flash, 5' above camera, pointed parallel with the floor, not down. Then expose for 6' to the side of center. the center with be a touch over and the sides will be a touch under, exactly like I mentioned above.

For gels, I've always used a set of freebies from Rosco. I'm sure the store will have gels that will work that are preset Kelvin.

Hope this helps, Doug

[Fabrice_Grover]

Thanks Doug. The hotel did not give the company permission to shoot in the lobby. My contact at the company just called me again to say she secured the lobby of their own building which she tells me has many plants and lots of natural light. That doesn't really help me visualize the scene, so I will be going to the new location today before hitting the rental shop. I am thinking I may need a soft box and reflector for the headshots, even if we are in a natural light setting -- the headshots will be from ~5:20pm to ~7:20pm, and the ambient light will be changing as the sun sets and the lobby's own artificial lighting becomes more prominent.

The last time I was hired to do corporate headshots, we were in an office. I rented a backdrop and lit each staff member with a softbox as the key and a reflector on the shadow side and I setup a hair light and a light on a tiny floor stand pointing towards the backdrop. I shot at ISO 100 and metered using a rented light meter and then dialed the flash heads up and down as required. I remember having trouble getting the background light low enough to control a persistent hotspot on the backdrop that kept wanting to blow out. I also had to keep repositioning the backdrop flash to hide it behind subjects of varying girth... in the end, the background was lit differently for each headshot, which was not really a problem, but I made a mental note to try something else next time.

In this instance I will try to use the features of the lobby instead of a painted backdrop. Assuming I have a similar amount of light at 5pm as I did in the lobby of the nearby hotel in which I shot the image I originally posted, I will probably shoot with my 70-200 f2.8 IS on a tripod @ f4, ISO 400, 1/60th of a second and try to use a soft-box and reflector to augment the light to get that shutter speed. I have a feeling the light will not be as warm in the office lobby as it was in the hotel lobby. If they have fluorescent tubes in there, I may just get them to turn them off and then decide weather or not to use the ambient light. This being the lobby of a commercial office space, I may not get permission to turn the lights off entirely and may have to improvise with whatever's there. I'm going to go and look now.

For the headshots, I am toying with the idea of renting the 50mm f1.2L ($35 for the day) and shoot almost wide open. This would be a less cumbersome way to throw the background out of focus (and be a bit closer to my subjects), even if I get less compression than with the 70-200. What worries me is I've never actually done portraits with a 50mm f1.2, so I don't know how critical I would have to be with the focus on the eyes. With my 70-200f2.8 IS, I know that if I shoot at f5.6 or so and allow the camera's center-point to determine focus on the eyes, I will get enough of the face in focus and the background will be blurred. So maybe I will stick with that. I can setup a soft-box next to the person being photographed and increase the output from the flash and adjust the background light as the evening progresses. Or perhaps I had better just not use the ambient light at all for the headshots since I need repeatability and the ambient light will be changing quickly at that time of day... I realize this is now a little off topic as I am going to be in a new setting, but any thoughts on lighting the headshot portion of the shoot in the new lobby would be appreciated. I will post a photo from the new location in a couple of hours.

After all the assistance I received for the group shot in the original hotel lobby I felt like I had pre-visualized the shoot and formulated several plans of attack. I was feeling ready to do the group shot in that space! Doug, thanks very much for walking me through your lighting technique... pushing up the shutter speed on the meter to measure the light as you walk through the scene makes sense -- you are just looking for uniformity, right? And the only thing you are changing is the position and direction of the flash heads, not the power of the individual flash heads, right?

I am reading the articles on strobist and realize that for these types of corporate shoots, I will very likely be using more and more off-camera flash and calling on an ever expanding bag of tricks and the particulars of a given location in order to come up with a creative solution to the problem at hand.

I will post photos of the new location this afternoon. My rental shop closes at 5pm, and that's the time at which I'll be shooting tomorrow, so my test shots in the new location will have to be done earlier. The office building is downtown, and I can probably extrapolate what the light will be like at 5pm tomorrow. The forecast for today and tomorrow is quite similar: "showers" -- it will be overcast.

Once again, my thanks for the help.
Fabrice

[DougAxford]

"And the only thing you are changing is the position and direction of the flash heads, not the power of the individual flash heads, right?"

Yes, sort of. the power on the flash is determined by the ambient light if you are trying to balance it that way. So, I'd set the power first, then position and direction and then make minor power adjustments as necessary. If no ambient light, then it's simply position & direction.

I find that a lot of shots like this always seem to get changed at the last minute. PITA for sure, but it shows how most people think of our profession - last one to be told. At least you found out today and not 5 min. before shot.

I would shoot individuals with the 70-200 at 5.6 range. I'd rather err on the side of being in focus than background out of focus. If you are renting another 580, I'd be inclined to use that to light the background rather than ambient if the ambient is going to be changing. Just keep the light soft and minimal. Corporate head shots tend to be darker backgrounds, but I think they would want uniformity and ambient won't give you that at that time of day.

I'd light headshots with softbox closer to face and use a soft reflector as you stated and keep it simple, but effective.

Doug

[KevinStecyk]

Doug, just a quick note to say that I have enjoyed reading your responses. I found your information informative and helpful.

[DougAxford]

Nice of you to let me know.

I should have called you when I was in Calgary a month ago. Sorry never thought!

I was shooting interior stuff for a hotel and a lot of this is exactly what I was doing there. I'm STILL waiting for them to narrow down the selection of shots. The best part was that they had one sample of their new bed coverings and I had to shoot any room with double beds twice and wait while they switched the covers on the beds. Then, there was the new pictures on the walls. Some rooms had old ones, some new, some both. Lots of PS. Fun anyway.

Doug

[KevinStecyk]

Hi Doug, I am glad you got the opportunity to work in Calgary. As you saw there's lots of new buildings and, probably, hotels going up in this city.

If I can ask a question without hijacking Fabrice's thread, it would be this question or concern posed by Fabrice:

The last time I was hired to do corporate headshots, we were in an office. I rented a backdrop and lit each staff member with a softbox as the key and a reflector on the shadow side and I setup a hair light and a light on a tiny floor stand pointing towards the backdrop. I shot at ISO 100 and metered using a rented light meter and then dialed the flash heads up and down as required. I remember having trouble getting the background light low enough to control a persistent hotspot on the backdrop that kept wanting to blow out. I also had to keep repositioning the backdrop flash to hide it behind subjects of varying girth... in the end, the background was lit differently for each headshot, which was not really a problem, but I made a mental note to try something else next time.

If you do have a background light, how do you ensure that you don't blow it out? Or let's say you're shooting someone at a restaurant using the natural light from the window to light her face, but you want to use a flash to light the background to get good hair background separation. Is there a technique that you can use to get an appropriate amount of light?

I find posts such as yours extremely helpful because you provide your thoughts as to your actions. Even though I am not presently faced Fabrice's challenge, you information is adding more arrows to my quiver.

Best regards,
Kevin

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