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  #8  
Old 11-04-2001, 10:45 AM
JackBingham JackBingham is offline
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Re: Remote with D1H

oops, I meant milleseconds




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  #9  
Old 11-04-2001, 09:05 PM
GabeSchaffer GabeSchaffer is offline
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Re: Remote with D1H

To be more specific, when you push the button, the camera has to stop down the iris, flip up the mirror, and trip the shutter. This can take 40-100 milliseconds due to the fact that things need to physically move.

Once the shutter is open, the strobes are triggered. This has to happen within microseconds of the shutter opening, otherwise the strobe might be too late at fast sync speeds like 1/500.

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  #10  
Old 11-05-2001, 10:59 AM
Patrick Clow Patrick Clow is offline
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Re: Remote with D1H

Where do I begin ... guess I'll start with "HI JACK! How the heck are ya?"

(FYI -- I work for PocketWizard and my suggestions are based on these products. A clever photographer may be able to replicate my suggestions using other manufacturer's equipment. Just wanted to clarify in case anyone thinks I'm a PocketWizard whore -- I am, but the original question was specifically about PocketWizards!)

Josh and all: You are experiencing (as others have mentioned) lag time. In the simplest explanation, your remote flash fires in sync with the shutter of the D1 in your hands, the shutter on the remote D1H (triggered at the same time) opens some time later -- way after the light is gone from the flash.

Basically ALL cameras are built this way -- they have a delay from the time they are triggered until the shutter is fully open (and thus able to receive the light from a flash). Mechanical things have to move, readings are taken, computers have to process data -- all of this takes time and contributes to the lag. Lag time is generally variable from camera to camera, even the same make/model. Lag time also varies from shot to shot (as it does, widely, in the D1 and D1H).

Lag time is generally several thousands times longer then the delay for a flash. The fastest camera I've heard of (in a standard photographic sense -- a rare Rollei) has a delay of less than 4 milliseconds (1/250 of a second) -- 200 times slower then a tired old flash.

Camera manufacturers never really thought of this as a problem. You push the button on a camera and it seems like it went off instantaneously. As a human being you can't sense a delay and you certainly can't sense a changing delay in most cameras. Lag time just wasn't a concern for them because it didn't affect the photographic process except in extreme situations. Nowadays we push extremes more often and we stumble on this inherent limitation of the photographic system.

(someday I'll write a real primer on this...)

We have a name for what you may be trying to do. We call it Equalization: having 2 or more cameras use the exact same flash burst. We make it happen by using delays to fire faster lag cameras later and thus have their shutters open at the same time as the slower cameras.

The camera being awake or not only has two real effects on this -- it makes the lag time a little shorter (not the big issue), and it makes the lag time more consistent (the BIG issue -- how erratic your lag time is plays in factor in the fastest shutter speed you can use!). There are several factors, in addition to the camera being awake, that make a lag time more consistent (and thus easier to compensate for): turn off auto anything, fix your focus, have good bateries, work in a controlled climate environment. Speed is not important -- consistency is.

Of course, you may be doing something else: you might just want to trigger the remote D1H in sync with a flash. This is why a lot of folk here are suggesting you use a relay setup.

Do you want both cameras to get the same flash burst because you want mutliple angles of one shot (Equalizing)? Or do you want the remote D1H to get an angle you can't see and use flash to do it?

You make some suppositions in your post -- allow me to clarify (and if you've read the above will make sense): The Plus and Classic Receivers ARE triggering at the same time, a pre-release cord is not the silver bullet for this problem (but if you have the other tools, it certainly helps), and the camera being awake or not is not the entire problem.

There are several ways to deal with this using PocketWizard or other LPA products, most of which are mentioned above. I'll recap them, least expensive first.


REMOTE:

This is just triggering the D1H remotely in sync with a flash, but NOT the same flash burst for the D1 in your hands.

If you want the D1 in your hands to trigger the whole shebang, it can be done but only if your flash can recycle fast enough to handle two full pops within 1/30 of a second (most can't). If the flash cannot then you'll need a second flash and a Receiver to trigger it.

If you don't want the D1 in your hands to trigger the whole thing (and/or you don't want to buy another flash setup) then you'll need a separate Transmitter to trigger the remote D1H. OR you could use the same Transmitter you are currently using at your position on a different channel.

All the setups mentioned below do NOT include these optional additional Transmitters/Receivers. You can figure out what you need.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI> Single Receiver on remote D1H motor port, flash hard-wired to the D1H

<LI> Single Receiver on remote D1H motor port, single Transmitter (set to same channel as flash Receiver) on remote D1H PC sync or hot shoe

<LI> Same as #2 but using a single MultiMAX Transceiver instead of a Plus or Classic pair.[/list]

Equalize:

This is triggering the D1 in your hands AND the remote D1H so that both shutters are open and a single flash burst is recorded by both.

Please please please read the section of the MultiMAX manual on Equalization (page 43) before you go any further -- it'll answer a lot of questions. It is available here: PocketWizard Manuals. In particular read the section on lag variance to understand about lag times and shutter speeds.

Special note: since you are talking about Nikon D-series digitals, you get an added complication/bonus to all the information in the MultiMAX manual! The physical shutter in the D1 series of cameras never goes any faster than 1/250th. At higher shutter speeds the CCD just records for a shorter time while the shutter stays open for 1/250th. What this means is that rather than getting clipped images when the camera's lag drifts (what you'd see in a film camera) you might still get a flash lit image, but exposure will be affected (like a leaf shutter). Why do I mention this? Becuase you'll have to base whether or not you're dead on for lag by exposure (or histogram) rather than by clipping which is how most 35mm stuff works.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI> MultiMAX on D1 motor port in your hands, MultiMAX on remote D1H motor port, any Receiver on the flash. This method requires you to do math and enter delays, as well as use the MultiMAX in relay mode. If the relay D1H drifts then the D1 in your hands will lose exposure, but the D1H never will.

<LI> Same as above, but 3 MultiMAX units. This system would require you to do less math and you wouldn't be at the mercy of one camera's drift affecting the exposure of the other, though with only 2 cameras any drift means half your system is out.

<LI> Same as above but 4 MultiMAX units plus any Receiver to allow you to alternately fire both cameras simultaneously or just the D1 in your hands with flash.

<LI> Make a quantum leap to the FlashWizard II system. This system is designed to handle multiple cameras and one flash and takes into account a lot of lag drift issues that the MultiMAX cannot. You would need at least 3 units for what you are doing and each unit is $2000.[/list]
WITHOUT THE LAG CORRECTION CIRCUIT THE D1 series CAN ONLY SAFELY EQUALIZE AT around 1/60th!


I could write about this for days and days. I'm going to pause now and maybe get some work done. Part of my work is making this information available on line eventually, rather than just in my head.

super sexy solution:

check back in a few days... I can say no more...

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  #11  
Old 11-06-2001, 12:09 AM
Thomas_E_Witte Thomas_E_Witte is offline
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Thomas_E_Witte 10
Re: Remote with D1H

Patrick-

Little puffs of blue smoke are wafting out of my ears. It was a long read, but very informative. Thanks a million for explaining everything.

I somehow completely misunderstood the original question, so my previous responce should be taken with a grain of salt... Actually, if you could think of anything slightly less valuable, take that instead. [img]images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

Speaking of pocket wizards, I've got an off topic question for those of you at the 7th game of the World Series.

There was a guy running around in the post game mob with a pocket wizard max sticking off his camera. My buddy thought he had strobes in the upper deck aimed down on the infield. (this might work, and considering the normal dryness of the area, it seemed possible. No need to worry about rain except, well, it rained.) I however voted that he had an assistant with a flash on a monopod at a set distance away. (I've seen this done a couple of times at large crowded events.)

If anyone who was there would mind telling us what happened it would be greatly appreciated. We've got a steak dinner riding on this bet. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Thomas E. Witte

GO Photography

[ November 06, 2001: Message edited by: Thomas E. Witte ]

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  #12  
Old 11-06-2001, 10:10 AM
Chris Livingston Chris Livingston is offline
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Chris Livingston 10
Re: Remote with D1H

Thomas,

I noticed it as well and having no first-hand knowledge of the shooter or what he was triggering would like to take a crack at it.

When I shoot baseball I like to set remtoes up at different locations. One could be set up for a play at the plate but from the other side than you. He could have also had one for covering the dugout and/or pitcher mound for the expected jub shot.

I don't think it was to trigger any lights though. I think it was to insure adequate coverage of game 7.

Hope that helps get you a steak.

Chris Livingston

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  #13  
Old 11-06-2001, 11:06 AM
Josh_Merwin Josh_Merwin is offline
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Josh_Merwin 10
Re: Remote with D1H

Thanks for all of your replies. Unfortunately the solution, as always, is that I need to spend more money! As much as I would like to fire both cameras on one strobe I think I will have a transmitter and reciever attatched to the D1, then hard wire a trigger to the remote camera which will have another transmitter out of the pc, set to the same channel as the reciever attatched to the strobes. It is the easiest and cheapest way to go. Thomas even though you misunderstood my question, the information you gave about the special setting to leave the camera awake for 30 minutes is priceless. I had no idea that existed, as I'm sure many other photographers didn't. Thanks again for the knowledge.

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  #14  
Old 11-06-2001, 11:07 AM
Josh_Merwin Josh_Merwin is offline
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Josh_Merwin 10
Re: Remote with D1H

Thanks for all of your replies. Unfortunately the solution, as always, is that I need to spend more money! As much as I would like to fire both cameras on one strobe I think I will have a transmitter and reciever attatched to the D1, then hard wire a trigger to the remote camera which will have another transmitter out of the pc, set to the same channel as the reciever attatched to the strobes. It is the easiest and cheapest way to go. Thomas even though you misunderstood my question, the information you gave about the special setting to leave the camera awake for 30 minutes is priceless. I had no idea that existed, as I'm sure many other photographers didn't. Thanks again for the knowledge.

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