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Re: which has more effect
  #8  
Old 05-04-2008, 10:22 AM
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Dennis_Vied Dennis_Vied is offline
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Re: which has more effect

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Garrett View Post
The lens is a relatively simple device
Very interesting statement. Up until the past ten years, the lens has been the most complicated device, requiring the most stringent engineering and manufacturing standards to achieve quality. The camera itself has been a relatively simple device, although gradually becoming more sophisticated with each iteration. Now we coming into situations where the lens engineer has to stretch to achieve a lens able to fully exploit the capabilities of the new sensors.

A truly interesting time for photographers.
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Re: which has more effect
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Old 05-04-2008, 12:43 PM
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Re: which has more effect

Personally I don't necessarily agree that the lens is relatively simple.

Consider that we now generally expect a zoom lens to produce excellent images.

There was a time that one simply HAD to have a prime lens to get real quality. Now we have zooms that produce sharp images with little aberration at all focal lengths. We complain if this or that wide angle lens is soft at full-wide or full-zoom. The complexity in design is not apparent, but you can be sure some optics engineer worked his/her butt off to reach the very best compromises in design so as to produce a useful, manufacturable lens.

And consider that the lenses have computers in them, which communicate with the camera in a complex interaction that culminates in a good exposure (not to mention supporting features like image stabilization that just keeps getting better). That's rather amazing if you think about it. 30 years ago we were just barely starting to imagine that computers would affect our lives, and now there's a chip in nearly everything.

-Noel
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Re: which has more effect
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Old 05-05-2008, 07:44 AM
Ronald Garrett Ronald Garrett is offline
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Re: which has more effect

My intention was to make the point that although the lenas does have a chip, it is not nearly as complex as the one in the camera. The lens has to have lots of precise engineering, but again not as much as the camera IE 60FPS at 6.1 mp? 1/8000th shutter speed, { I realize that is an electronic function, but 1/2000 is in fact mechanical}? The camera controls many more functions than does the lens. The camera even makes up for poor performance by some lens.

It would seem to me that we are at, {or close to} the limit of present day lens resolving power for our top pro cameras. Could it be that Nikon realizes that and showed more wise decisions in their latest 12mp limit than was first thought? Dunno, just a thought.

I guess we will find out later this year when 24.6mp becomes a reality. How many lens of the past will handle that kind of detail? I don't have the answer for sure.

Not having any medium format experience at all, I would like to know if there are any lens issues there?

I think I will have to do some rethinking on future lens purchases. I may not ever have a full frame camera, although a used one in a couple of years is a possibility. In the past I have tried to stay with FX lens, even though they were usually more expensive because I thought I was preparing for that eventuality. Seems that is not so safe after all, {case in fact Nikon 70 - 200 / F2.8}?

Are cameras getting too complicated in that we are spending too much time fiddling and not enough shooting? It appears there is no end in sight.
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Re: which has more effect
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Old 05-05-2008, 04:22 PM
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Re: which has more effect

I like fiddling. And I do a fair bit of shooting.

You make a good point about future lens purchase decisions carrying more gravity, because the bodies are more capable of showing lens deficiencies.

That said, I still absolutely love the very first Canon EF lens I bought in 2000... My trusty 28-135 USM IS f/3.5-5.6 zoom. Is it *perfect*? No, but it still makes images I like.

-Noel
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Re: which has more effect
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Old 05-05-2008, 06:07 PM
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Re: which has more effect

My first thought was to say the lens has more effect. Without it, there is no image because, technically speaking, there would be no way to collect the available image-forming light and bring it to a common point of focus at the film plane, er... the sensor plane.

The camera controls many more functions than does the lens.

Yes, that is true. OTOH you should handle a mechanical camera at least once in your life. I suggest that you look at a 4 x 5 inch monorail/technical camera. Apart from not being able to be useful where size and speed are essential, there is nothing that such a camera cannot do. The multitude of functions and settings on current digital camera bodies have very little to do with creating/capturing images.

How do you think white balance was achieved prior to the advent of digital imaging? What about depth of field or sharp planes of focus? All that was required to capture an image was a light tight box, a lens, a shutter with a means of releasing it (preferably with a few different speed settings) an aperture on the lens that could be adjusted to vary the amount of incoming image-forming light and a shutter release.

The complexity of digital cameras derives from the designers trying to emulate the functions and facilities that could be found on any mechanical 35mm camera body. Do you really need a separate setting for aperture priority? Set the aperture to whatever you want to based on your need and meter for that setting.

The same can be said of shutter priority. Whatever is the speed that you cannot drop below, meter for that speed. The overhead inherent in having a computer on a chip work out every possible combination of exposure values for when you want to favour the aperture or the shutter speed (even if you never use them) strikes me as less than necessary.

There was a time that one simply HAD to have a prime lens to get real quality.

Absolutely! I was one of the fools who had believed the marketing men and I had stupidly bought the much vaunted Nikkor 43 ~ 86mm f/3.5 lens, which was supposed to be a fantastic lens by all accounts. What a dog! The experience stopped me buying any more zoom lenses until 2004.

and now there's a chip in nearly everything.

Even on my shoulder... given the huge move towards automation of just about everything and that leaves me wondering how many more custom functions I need before I can become a professional photographer.

Not having any medium format experience at all, I would like to know if there are any lens issues there?

Medium format lenses have less work to do than 35mm and smaller formats. The image magnification that is required is much less and the lenses are easier to design. Whether a 6x7cm silicon sensor will show the lenses to be not good enough, is a matter for speculation. In terms of film, the lenses were able to capture a far more subtle tonal gradation than smaller formats. Images tended to look smoother and sharper at any given size of print.

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Re: which has more effect
  #13  
Old 05-06-2008, 07:34 AM
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Re: which has more effect

Well Jeff, you centainly made me think a little bit. Know what? I just realized that I was incorrect in comparing lens/camera to chicken/egg. It is fact that the camera came first, and cameras were built that didn't use a lens at all! Pin hole box camera?

Being as a majority of my photography is mobile, I am not interested in a mechanical 4 X 5 film camera. I struggle with my longest lens attached to a 40D !

My question about complexity was aimed at the fact that some operators manuals are 400 / 500 pages long now. Heck there are people that spend their entire lifetime learning how to use all the features of Photoshop, and new "secrets" are still being found!

Some cameras now have the ability to take a picture when the subject smiles.

I feel like I need to stay on top of the newest technology because to be able to sell an image here or there, I must be able to deliver what the general public can't.

I guess the point about manual "techinical cameras" should make me glad for all the automation now? Noel would prolly like the old mechanical cameras as it looks like more "fiddling" was actually needed then than now.

Wow, I'm enlightened.
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Re: which has more effect
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Old 05-06-2008, 10:34 AM
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Re: which has more effect

Heh heh. You have put your finger on the essence... Differentiating one's work from the crowd... One way is to embrace the technology and use it adeptly. Understanding it thoroughly usually reduces the fiddling to a minimum - after an initial fiddling extravaganza (imagine "The Devil Went Down to Georgia" music here).

It also means you might get the shot while others are still fiddling. I'm reminded of the Space Shuttle images I took, in which I used two cameras - my 10D and 20D - simultaneously. The 20D was mounted on my 5000mm f/10 telescope and my 10D was piggybacked on top with my 100-400 lens, and the shutter button remoted via my TC80-N3. I managed to track the vehicle, hands on the 20D shutter button and TC80-N3, eye to the spotter scope, and get over 200 well-focused, well exposed photos.

Another way to differentiate one's work is to develop a distinctive personal style.

Still another way is to simply make a good product for a reasonable price and peddle it honestly.

I like combining all these approaches.

-Noel
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