Some issues in need of raising.

[Mike Weeks]

This is aimed at the UK market But I would also be interested to compare the situation elsewhere.

Event photography can be a strange business and the way many photographers are treated by other photographers is poor to say the least. What am I talking about? The greed when taking bookings that they personally cannot fulfil, whereby they then hope to pass the job to some schmuck who they pay £150 for the evenings work and then reap large rewards from post event sales.

Yes I know it is possible to have nights where it costs more to attend than you earn but you live and learn what works and what does not and make your choices accordingly.

There are plenty of other models of working that I have heard about such as paying a percentage of the night’s sales and passing back the images so you have to make your money on the night. I have heard of people complaining that they have passed out jobs and believe that the cut that they have been passed back in no way reflects what they believe they should have received (unfortunately trust is a 2 way issue). This reflects the way entertainers work with the Agent taking a booking fee.

Personally I prefer to pass jobs that I can not do personally to others that can do them, my fee – zilch, nothing, free. Why? Because I believe that if the smaller independents help each other out we can all make a living, but the only way this will succeed is if everybody stops being a schmuck and allowing themselves to be treated thus.

What event photographers do not have is a representative body – as far as I know none of the major bodies actually recognise event photography unlike weddings, architecture or portraiture for example. What does not help is the amount of seminars that tell you it is easy money and anybody with a laptop, a 6MP camera and a HiTi printer can make a fortune at weekends. Those that know the business know the effort it requires. I can have up to £10-£12K of equipment at a function plus there are costs such as insurances so I know the realities.

My own solution was to set up Site Not Found to meet and work with like minded photographers. I have no problem working for or with somebody else as long as I am treated with respect and paid a reasonable amount and I would do the same for anybody working for me.

My questions?

• What do you think is a reasonable split / amount to work for?
• Should you pass the images to the Agent at the end of the night?
• Is it about time that somebody tried to bring some organisation / recognition to event photographers?

In my opinion it is about time that the small independent event photographer stood up to be counted and stopped allowing others to make huge profits out of them, maybe you feel different or do not want to upset your ‘Agent’. I am really interested to hear your thoughts either in the forum or by PM, but please no hiding behind stupid names. I have posted this on a number of forums as I feel that it is an issue that needs bringing out in to the open.

Mike

[DougAxford]

Best answer I can give is this: if I can't do he event, I'll check with a few close friends who I will pay according to profitability, otherwise I turn it down.

The problem is that there are so many weekenders who will shoot tournaments/events for cheap. They think that if they pick-up $500. for a full weekend's work they are laughing. Then, they go to their regular job Monday morning. For us, that weekend often has to pay the bills for the whole week.

I hear the problem and feel your pain. There are a few sports organizations, but I've never heard of event groups. The closest I know is the Yahoo forum for Express Digital. A lot of event people there, but shared with a lot of weekend warriors.

If you set something up, let me know. Yahoo or Google groups are free if there are enough members. Maybe Drew can allocate a section of this forum to a closed 'event' group. Now, you have to define who can & can't join - the joys of being a mod.

[jeffcable]

Originally Posted by Mike Weeks

This is aimed at the UK market But I would also be interested to compare the situation elsewhere.

snip...

A lot of questions there, Mike. I have a few thoughts and opinions that may help to broaden the discussion.

The issue of any putative representative body would need to address who it would represent. How many events have you attended where unskilled people are using a dSLR (must be professionals, eh?) and they succeed in getting in the way... maybe they just happen to be very good friends of the organisers of an unaffiliated equestrian event, for example.

When I am standing in a dingy and poorly lit show-jumping arena at an unaffiliated junior event, with inexperienced riders and horses, the last thing I want to see is some guest/fool using a camera with flash and a noisy motordrive from the sidelines, whatever about them actually wanting to be with me in the arena.

Can event photographers insist that no amateur photographers are permitted during professional photographic sessions? I doubt that it could be effectively policed, and probably, the request would not be viewed in a good light. What are we going to call professional standards and who will decide and upon which basis will the decision be made? The work is varied and the approaches to the work are many and varied. Some of us are unlikely to accept the images that are routinely produced by other event photographers.

A representative body may be able to act like an umbrella organisation if it could be the central contact point for the public to find a photographer for their particular event. Of course, that would then exclude photographers who would not wish to join such a body and I would be reluctant (and cautious) about excluding any other professional photographer who had a legitimate right not to belong to an organisation. In times of difficulty, we all look to cut costs where we can and I suspect that subs to journals and organisations, that may not be direct conduits to getting work, are going to be among the first to be dropped when times are tough.

Suppose you had got a body which could represent event photographers and act as a filter then disseminate the work (for a modest subscription fee) is it likely that they would want to take on accreditation and training issues? What about safety at certain events? Is there any mileage in charging fees for photographer access? (could this be linked to a comprehensive insurance policy negotiated nationally?)

If I want to shoot from the infield at a circuit like Brands Hatch when there is international motorcycle racing, I have to pay a daily fee to the circuit to be allowed to wander around the infield. It is a royal PITA but a necessary one and the upside for my fee is that the infield is kept clear of keen amateurs and I only have to consider my own safety at whichever vantage point I choose to shoot from.

The issue of what to charge (if you are the agent) and what to receive if you are the donkey, is going to be subject to a smörgåsbord of business ideals that are chosen by individuals to drive their businesses. My own view on collaborative work is that I tend to favour a 50/50 split because neither party would receive any benefit... if it were not for the contribution of the other. In other words, my personal philosophy is that it is much better to receive 50% of something rather than to own 100% of nothing.

Where the split is 50/50, neither party can feel aggrieved. I think that he images should stay with the photographer rather than the agent. The reason is that I feel that any repeat business ought to belong to the shooter. The agent gets the 50% fee from the day of the event and any repeat business may come weeks or months after the shoot. Repeat business was generated by the efforts of the shooter, rather than the agent, and ought to go to the photographer.

Is it time something was organised for event shooters? I don't have any strong feelings either way. If there was a useful and productive body, I would consider joining it. The UK is going through a time when every aspect of our daily lives appears to be subject to more scrutiny and regulation. On that ground alone, I would need to seriously consider whether more regulatory organisation is a good thing. I make a living without such an organisation right now. Will another new body bring me more custom or will it suck up some of the cash I earn and give me little in return? If I want monthly meetings in a nice pub or to have a regular meal in a good hotel, I don't need to belong to any organisation. YMMV

Jeff

[EricC]

What do you think is a reasonable split / amount to work for?

Let me ask you, say that you agree to a 50/50 split with me on an event. Will you also split the costs 50/50?

• Am I out the $250 for a 1/2 page ad in the program? Will you split that too?
• Will you provide a certificate of insurance to the league or am I covering you? Can I prorate the premium for the 2 days that I am covering your liability and deduct that ?
• Assuming only on-site sales what about the investment in viewing stations, tables, skirting, display hardware, raw materials, up keep on software licenses, etc. Will you split the payroll on the $$ being paid to the table people that are printing the photos that you would like 50% of the sale on?
• On web based sales, will you also share in the cost of card processing fees? How about the 10% 15% 30% that some fulfillment sites charge, game to share that cost too?
• Why should I put up all of the infrastructure only to have someone else get a free ride?

It's easy to leave half on the table when you don't have any of the costs to deal with. What if the event gets canned? Will you take the hit for 50% of the up front costs?

Point Blank I hand a NDA and WFH contract to anyone working for me. They get paid a flat rate for the event and that's that. To date I have had little trouble finding help.

In the summer time the yearbook companies go dormant and their underpaid staff are chomping at the bit to work for us. As studio shooters they are quite accustomed to the idea of turning in the photos without any ceremony.

Lately I have been getting hounded by displaced newspaper shooters as the local papers went through a buyout and in many cases the reporters are now carrying 6mp P&S and pulling double duty.

Honestly the market is flush with shooters. People who have a business sense and the ability to formulate a business plan that will grow THEIR BUSINESS are the hard find. We all see them, they land 2 or 3 gigs and give the world away in the process. They over pay for everything from the % being paid to the organizer to the people shooting for them to the fancy custom plastic bags with their logo on them. Only to end up with 4899 empty bags in the corner of the basement.

In the end there is no way that I'm going to do a 50/50 split while also covering 100% of the costs that landed the gig that the 'other' shooter is benefiting from.

[jeffcable]

Originally Posted by EricC

Let me ask you, say that you agree to a 50/50 split with me on an event. Will you also split the costs 50/50?

&c...

I ought to make it clear (if it was not from my post) that I was answering the questions posed by Mike, as if the work came through the agency of another photographer who was unable to take on the work... leastways that is how the OP had appeared to me.

I would not get confused about working collaboratively with another person and splitting the running costs 50/50 and just agreeing to do work that another photographer was unable to take on. The work would have come through that person's agency and the event costs would be met by the photographer taking on the extra work.

The arrangement you have cited is not about independent work (the event being passed to another photographer) because you are just simply employing other people and that is a matter for how you choose to run your business. Any costs you incur in tendering for, advertising the gig and running an event session all belong to your own business and it would be unfair to saddle your employees with the expense of putting on the gig.

If you are saying that you would otherwise only take 10% of what you could take at an event, if you did not employ your staff, then only you can decide if that works for you. No professional photographer (none that I know of, anyway) is going to be working without providing their own public liability insurance and they all own enough expensive kit to do the job, with or without the assistance of the referring agent, or else they could not take the work referral and do it justice.

Would your own insurance cover the theft of expensive photographic kit from one of your employees who was working for you in a high-risk environment?

If you need to share all of your expenses with another professional photographer, who has the full range of professional skills that you must rely on... because you cannot handle the event from your own resources but you want to move into covering bigger events, then that will require a formal contract. Both parties will need to sign up to it and have an equal say in precisely what expenses are incurred and what the payroll is for their own efforts. This is more of a formal partnership arrangement.

Eric, I believe that Mike was only referring to work that could not be done by the commissioned photographer (who by default becomes the agency through which another photographer gets offered the work) and the accepting photographer runs the event on the understanding that all of the normal expenses associated with managing an event become his/her own.

Jeff

[Ian_D_Griffiths]

Mike,

In all industries the world over there are a miriad of abilities of people working within each, from the entrepreanuer who can market, generate the business, conduct the business to a very high standard and fulfill the clients every wish to the "Agent" to guy who for whatever reason just wants to turn up, do the job (to a high standard) and go home! It is the latter that organisations such as my own (Event-Photos) assist as well as the newcomer who want to get in to event photography regardless of if they have any photographic background or not.

We have a good number of guys from the IT world, some very capable photographers, some have never held, nor want to hold a camera, it seems there is a mass exodus from the IT world just now!

I not only train, mentor and direct our teams in professional standards but also provide as much (within the realms of reality) or as little work as required.

Our method I believe is very simple and fair to all involved, I charge £50 per event per day, so a two day football tournament attracts a fee of £100 When at an event for Event-Photos the team is representing Event-Photos not "Joe Photos" and our policies and procedures have to be followed.

All jobs offered are subject to a contract of terms and conditions between Event-Photos and the event organiser, everyone knows what is expected of them from PA announcements, adverts in the program, positioning on the field and the exclusion of other photographers there for commercial gain.

All income generated at the event for both orders fulfilled on the day and orders for items not produced on-site but provided by mail-order are kept by the event team doing the job. Our 'mean average' income on-site per job per day in 2007 was £780 (Lowest was £110 highest was £11,200) as we all know there is a gulf of difference between jobs and as I always say "Once the sun goes in so do the wallets!" The weather truly is our nemesis.

The only out lay the photographer has with regard to the booking is there may be a site-fee of up to 10% of the turnover on the day but again, this is made very clear at the time the booking is offered.

At the end of the event the event team lose all rights to the images, that transfers to Event-Photos, the images are published on our web site and any sales made are to the benefit of Event-Photos.

Our terms and conditions are made very clear prior to the event teams ever doing any work for us, so there are no suprises.

In 2007 we placed over 700 events = over 1000 event days.

Since 2001 there have only been 3 teams who have been excluded from the network and in each case this was because they broke our terms and conditions, everyone else is still with us, so I guess they are not unhappy with the system. About 15 of our event team leaders are active members of both this forum and the other you subscribe to photographers.co.uk

I offer all this information to try and give balance to your original post as you come accross very anti-angency. There is a place for people like myself to assist those who cannot (or don't want to) generate their own business, many photographers fall in to the "I'm an artist not a salesman" catagory and can't be bothered to get in to marketing to grow their business.

With regard to an event photography association, I agree there should be a body that can help define policies and working methods to improve the professionalism of event photography but as others before me have said who will police it, how will it be policed I was 20 years in corporate sales and a great believer in the saying "Things are never what you expect, only what you inspect!" Associations where you submitt a selection of your work to a panel just don't work for me, you wouldn't submitt anything bad and who can actually prove that what was submitted was your work? I would only be interested in an association that carries out spot checks (as indeed I do with our event teams) to check reality, this I believe is the only way to truly monitor and control working practice and quality.

[Mike Weeks]

Ian,

I am not anti-agency, far from it what I am is anti unfair agency. Of the forums I have posted this in yours from what I read appears to be be one of the fairset systems that I have read about. What I am trying to do is wake up those photographers whose so called Agents are coining it whilst they are picking up the scratchings. I may be wrong on my take but having chatted to a lot of photographers recently and I have built a fairly convincing picture in my mind of some of the realities.
Your comments about standards echo many of my own thoughts.

Mike

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