So, I'm minding my own business this morning perusing another forum and stumble across a thread where a photographer mentioned, they have photos of an event we photographed for sale on their website. So I take a look and there are several of our events posted on this person's site. When I say "our events", I mean we were the approved photographer, had our trailer there and additional photographers on board to cover various activities. As well as, paid vendors fees, sponsorship, etc. So, my question, for those who've dealt with this in the past is: Should I contact this person? My attorney? The client with whom we have the relationship? While these are their events, I don't want them to have to fight my battles for me. If it really is my battle. On the other hand if the client contacts the poacher and tells them to remove the photos from the internet, then I'm not the bad guy and the poacher will have been warned.
Any thoughts?
White Balance so easy, even our 5 year old can do it.- Melissa Strickland
Well, what's in the contract? If the contract supports your position, and the organiser backs you up on the day and subsequently, you should be able to get whatever you want - profits, damages, apologies, etc. Yes, you will be seen as the bad guy. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Mike
White Balance so easy, even our 5 year old can do it.- Melissa Strickland
We've spoken of this in the past. If you have the legal grounds to be the exclusive you'll need to protect that or it will be worth nothing. When you have an exclusive, you have to have it in writing else it becomes a he said, they said situation. If you've got it in writing, then step on this bugs head! They are stealing from you! Forget about PC. You can't pay your bills with PC. If someone thinks your a bad guy for standing up for what's yours...you don't want that person in your life. A thief deserves zero consideration.
White Balance so easy, even our 5 year old can do it.- Melissa Strickland
Norm, I agree with you on principle... but I've been chased away from events when I pull a pro camera out of my bag for personal shots. I get chased away on the grounds that someone else has 'exclusive rights' to shoot an event. So I have to be a gentleman and put my camera away, while anyone with a point & shoot or a cell phone cam gets to keep shooting. My crime was to show up at my kids' events with a big black camera. Small silver cameras and cell phone cams, evidently, are fine. (Why shouldn't moms and dads be allowed to shoot with pro gear?)
Lets assume for the moment that its not a racial issue (bias for silver!) and that the event security is just doing they are told to do.
The real difference is that I don't intend to sell my pictures, while the event-contracted photographer does. But I own the copyright to my photos. Why shouldn't I be able to sell them to anyone I want?
Will -- If you had the exclusive rights to shoot one of my kid's events, would you object if I used a black camera with a long lens? Would you still object if I used a silver camera with a short lens? Or is your objection simply putting images up for sale?
I'm being slightly facetious of course -- I hope you understand. I just don't like being told to put my camera away while others are allowed to keep shooting. But I think your issue is what I do with my pictures after I take them. And, while I generally value your opinion -- and those opinions of all others here on PPC -- I am really not interested in your claim of rights on pictures that came out of my black camera (or my wife's silver camera). And, I suspect, you don't care about my opinion on whether I think I own any rights on your photos (of my daughters), regardless of the color of your camera.
I understand your predicament -- you are trying to make a living, and you don't need competition.
I don't have an answer -- but I wish I did.
Not being a sports shooter, I'm on thin ice here, but I believe most pro sports (NBA, NFL, MLB) declare ownership of the event itself, and don't allow anyone to broadcast or sell images/video/play by play descriptions of the event without pre-arranged permission. Someone with knowledge here should chime in. I'm curious if I took a picture of a big play in a big game (with my cell phone camera) and then sold it in a gallery at $1000 per print -- would the league come after me? And would they do it to protect the contracted photographers' rights? Or their own?
Ron
White Balance so easy, even our 5 year old can do it.- Melissa Strickland
At the events I cover I have an agreement with the event organizers that says that I have the exclusive rights to shoot and sell photos from their events. They fully expect me to take care of any and all people who want photos. In return, I provide the event organizers with images that they can use for marketing their organization. It's a fair trade.
I am given free rein to go wherever I want to at the event in the pursuit of our photos. If I wish to stand in the middle of the track while a race is going on, I'm allowed to do it. I don't, but I am allowed to. Because of the dangerous nature of our sport, there is a serious chance for injury and death if you are in the wrong place or do the wrong thing. It is not a place for the non-pro. As a result, no one, other than my company photographers, is allowed to photograph from the danger zones and my photographers have to wear a uniform that identifies them as being approved to be there. If you try to get into the danger areas you will be immediately thrown out. If you try it twice, you're ejected from the event. If you try it a third time, you'll be banned for life.
We know that wives want to take photos of their husbands and vice versa. We also know that if we tried to stop it we'd have some very upset people on our hands and that wouldn't be good for business. As a result, we allow people to photograph as much as they please from the defined spectator areas. There is no restriction on cameras but spectators are, however, restricted from selling any photos taken at the event. Spectators usually aren't a problem but the folks who are media are a royal pain. I can't count the number of times I've been asked to allow a media photographer to work at an event only to watch the guy go around to the various car owners and try and sell photos. We now require a request in writing from the media organization at least one week in advance and the media organization is given a copy of the rules. If their photographer violates the rules, the media organization will not be allowed to cover the event again.
In the scenario you describe, I would probably stop and talk with you and explain our situation and the rules. As long as you stayed in the spectator areas, I wouldn't care how many photos you took nor what kind of gear you had. Out here, there's a lot of dot com money still floating around and there are absolute amateurs with some fantastic gear. It takes a bit more than great gear to do what we do and do it well. If you seemed to be competent and interested, you might receive an invitation to audition with us or you might be invited to work alongside one of my shooters in a tame area. However, it never fails that we have someone at an event decide that the rules don't apply to them and they are caught and tossed out on their ear.
On the flip side, I cannot tell you how frustrating it is to apply for credentials to cover a professional event and see 75 percent of the people with photo passes using point and shoots on a monopod or people out there with their camera phones. There's a lot of people who get turned down for these events because all the photo passes have been taken by posers.
Hope this helps.
White Balance so easy, even our 5 year old can do it.- Melissa Strickland
<The real difference is that I don't intend to sell my pictures, while the event-contracted photographer does. But I own the copyright to my photos. Why shouldn't I be able to sell them to anyone I want?>
Ron,
I need to address this. When you go to an event, say your daughters soccer game, there may be restrictions placed on you that you aren't even aware of. When your daughter was signed up for the league that she plays in, you may have had to sign documents that restrict what you can and cannot do in return for them allowing your daughter to play.
If your league plays their games on city or state or school property, there may be restrictions on what you can or cannot do by one or more of those entities. In many areas of this country, you cannot sell a photo unless you have a business license in the area where you are and you also will need to have a resellers certificate to ensure that you pay sales tax on anything you sell and you may be required to have liability insurance and any number of other goodies.
You may be playing on public land and the event may be open to the public but I would be surprised if certain restrictions weren't applied, especially if there is a photographer licensed by and paying money to the league. They will gladly tell you to put away the cameras if it means losing the revenue FROM the photographer.
If you play on private property, you can pretty much guarantee that there will be restrictions. If you go to a professional performance of any kind, read your ticket and you'd be amazed at the restrictions. At the events I do, they are held on private property that is leased by an organization and to participate you have to pay a significant fee. If a person wants to spectate they often have to pay a nominal fee to get in.
Yeah, you might own the copyright, but you can and will be told what you can and cannot do.
White Balance so easy, even our 5 year old can do it.- Melissa Strickland
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Will -- If you had the exclusive rights to shoot one of my kid's events, would you object if I used a black camera with a long lens? Would you still object if I used a silver camera with a short lens? Or is your objection simply putting images up for sale?
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Ron,
Honestly, my issue is with the images being posted on an e-commerce site for the purpose of selling them. Since the world I work in is fairly affluent, Dads with lots of disposable income frequently show up at the shows with nicer or newer equipment than we use.
I will admit to occasionally being irked when these same Dads mention to me, "Oh, I don't sell these. I just give them to the kids that ride at my daughter's barn". Great! Give, huh? No matter how wonderful our shots are, it's hard to compete with free. I also admit to getting annoyed with one family where a parent is a commercial photographer. They show up at a few shows each season with the same story. My thought? "Hey great. That client you doing the big product shoot for next week is a good friend of mine. Mind if I stop by your studio and take a few shots to GIVE him?"
A little professional courtesy please!
Ultimately, I've chosen to blow these situations off since making a stink could cast me in a bad light and word travels fast in the equine community. And in most cases, because we have ring access and such, we can offer things the give-awayers cannot. So, I just pick my battles and hopefully don't end up dying on the wrong hill.
The sad fact is, more than likely my flexibility with "Black Cameras" may have actually contributed to the situation I now face. On the other hand, with a Best Buy or Circuit City on every corner, I am surprised it took this long for it to become an issue.
Bill
White Balance so easy, even our 5 year old can do it.- Melissa Strickland
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