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To me, the issue of mom and dad showing up to take photos on their own, for their own use, is fundamentally no different than bringing your own box lunch instead of buying from the concession stand. But bringing your own food to sell, well, that's a different story. Ditto for taking and selling photos.
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This is exactly the position I have taken in the past. However, I will now again be more diligent in keeping my eyes peeled for poachers.
Norm, Funny you say that.
A few years ago I had a guy with a D1X and a big honkin lens shooting at one of my shows. I chatted him up a bit in a friendly way to see what he was up to. He explained that he was a home renovation contractor and a photographic hobbyist and his buddy asked him to come take pictures of the buddy's daughter. He also said he wanted to take some practice shots of the riders that went before her. OK, fair enough. So the girl rides and he leaves the ring once she's done. Then I see him at the in gate recruiting people for portrait sessions and lining barns up for group shots. After a while he saunters back to the ring and starts shooting every rider that comes in. In the meantime I had told the powers that be, what was going on. In between riders, I headed over to him and asked where his job on Monday was. He looked at me kinda funny and I said "You know, what's the address"? He asked why and I asked him if it would be OK for me to be on his job site Monday morning with my toolbelt on?
He got the point and relented. Of course the 2 rather large guys from the barn, that headed over when they saw me go confront him may have helped. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Bill
White Balance so easy, even our 5 year old can do it.- Melissa Strickland
It always helps to have large persuasive friends! Especially if they have had their nose broken sometime in their past. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
White Balance so easy, even our 5 year old can do it.- Melissa Strickland
This is a fascinating thread... and I haven't seen one of those around here in a while.
I'm struck however, buy the pervasive comments on the business side of the business... rather than the creative/artistic side of photography. I guess that's the nature of the event business. I don't envy you guys. Sounds like shooting 500 kids for elementary school 'portraits.'
Photography is supposed to be fun -- and to me, the fun comes from making art.
Ron
White Balance so easy, even our 5 year old can do it.- Melissa Strickland
Yes making art is part of it, but selling it is the biggest part of it.
We are event photographers, and shoot people doing interesting, well events.
Some get paid to be there, others pay a vendor fee to show up and provide a service for an event, where those who participate in the event, can elect to purchase.
We do not have the art show, style of selling, we have paid to be there, invested in man power, and invested in technology to who our wares.
We hire the talent, and produce a product that the customer wants.
A large part of many event photographers take, is the creative products that are larger ticket items, but we get people to part with their money in the time the event is going on, and some here may sell only online.
Kind of a 50,000 foot of what we do.
I do not really think of my type of photography as school portrait, although some events, we shoot team pictures, or T&I, but a good part of my work is action, in your face, peak action photography.
Hard to explain at 50,000 feet.
We are businessman/women, trying to service our customer base and keep the bills paid.
People who come to a closed event, are taking money from us, even if they give away their work free.
I have no problem with a parent, making pictures of their own kid, but I keep an eye on the GWC, to be sure he does not distract my closed market.
EJS
White Balance so easy, even our 5 year old can do it.- Melissa Strickland
Event photo sales are tough. Will, I really hate seeing the poaching at big events, especially big team sports where it's hard to discern the poacher from the press. I do not shoot to make a living, but derive significant income from my photography hobby so it's easy to empathize with those of you who shoot full time. The worst part is paying to be a vendor and then getting cheated by freeloaders. That's too risky a business proposition for my taste so kudos to you who have the courage to do it this way.
It is because I once experienced the same issues expressed in this thread that I only do event photos for a contracted up-front fee. That fee includes me providing a limited set of prints for the organization plus limited image use rights for promos, ads, etc. The contract fee is set to cover overhead/travel expenses plus an adequate profit for my trouble (I am, after all, taking time away from other ventures). I then offer prints for sale online (post-event) at nominal pricing which some may think, ahem, are too low not knowing that I already earned a net profit via paid contract. The print sales from my particular arrangements are merely pure-profit icing. This works for private events I cover so it probably won't apply to events open to the general public like youth sports, equestrian shows and motorsports, etc.
With my contract fee arrangement already set, if a poacher shows up with a Rebel XT and Sigma 80-400 or even a 1DmkII and 400/f2.8, I don't sweat it because I already made my money. If there's any way you can set a contract fee for event photos, I highly recommend doing so. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
White Balance so easy, even our 5 year old can do it.- Melissa Strickland
Business is not all packing boxes, accounting and meetings. When I started this business I thought it would be all about how good my photos were. If I took great photos (what I thought were great photos anyway) I'd have lots of customers and make lots and lots of money. I mean, I know more about what makes a good photo than my customers do, right? I am the photographer after all. I put out the product and you buy it, right? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]
Let me tell ya, it doesn't work that way. Customers have this nasty habit of liking what they like, not what I tell them to like. They want things the way that THEY want them. They don't care that we have these great shots that make their car look gorgeous. They want to be in front of a group of cars or they want photos where their wheels are off the ground or they want photos showing action or they want photos with their team mates etc. etc. etc. One guy had been looking at my photos for two years when one day he says "You finally got it. You got me in some action." To him, action was driving though a cloud of dust.
You quickly find out that if you want to stay in business, you had better forget about what you want and find out what they want and provide it to them. Unfortunately they seldom ever walk in and say "I want photos like this." If you aren't creative, they may never walk in at all.
You have to be creative in where you place your operation. You have to be creative in how and where you put out displays. You have to be creative in your pricing and your product list. You have to be creative in your announcements or else they may not get listened to. You have to be creative in your advertising not only for content but when you use it and how it's used. You have to be creative even in the decision as to which events to cover. Sometimes, the least creative thing that is done is the actual taking of the photos. Then again, when your photos start to look like everyone elses, you have to be creative enough to find different locations, angles, perspectives and lighting conditions. Because we shoot outside, we have to know when we can shoot at what location during any part of the day, month or year. We have shots that can be taken only during 2 months of the year.
Then, of course, we have to be creative in our pricing. Too low and we could either get more work than we could handle or lose customers because they suspect your work is bad otherwise it wouldn't be so cheap. Too high and you can lose customers because they don't see your work as being a value at the price. If you're shooting high end equine, they may not be happy with small snapshots. Shoot youth soccer and they may not respond well to posters.
Believe me, there's a lot more to this than just taking pictures.
White Balance so easy, even our 5 year old can do it.- Melissa Strickland
<I then offer prints for sale online (post-event) at nominal pricing which some may think, ahem, are too low not knowing that I already earned a net profit via paid contract.>
This is one of those things that fries my shorts for two reasons.
1. What difference does it make if you've already earned a net profit from a paid contract? Photos don't have a have a maximum sales amount associated with them and there isn't a little counter on them that tells everyone how much they've already earned you. You should be making the most amount of money that you can from your work. There is competitive pricing and then there is dumping.
2. What will you do if you succeed in driving the other photographers in your area out of business? Will you cover all the events that they were covering or will you leave everyone hanging? What happens if your duties at your day job change and you don't have the ability to run your event business any longer? Do you have an obligation to your event organizers? How about your customers?
There was a situation with a fellow photographer a few years ago. He'd built up a nice little event business and used some of the money from his very highly paid day job to subsidize his event business. He was a telecom engineer. His prices were pretty low and he did work for several event organizers. Then one day his company decided that they needed him to go to Sri Lanka. He didn't go for just a normal business trip, he ended up going there for 18 months. He ended up screwing 4 event organizers and who knows how many customers. When he came back he couldn't understand why he wasn't met with open arms and well wishes.
I personally think that it is unethical, not to mention bad business practices, for someone to subsidize their business income with income from another job and then lower their prices below the level that their competitors, who do not have an equivalent subsidy, can match. There are some who don't see this as a problem but I do. I'm not if favor of price fixing by any means. I believe in competition and survival of the fittest. If you can drive your prices lower because you are more efficient or you can get lower prices on the product you sell or you decide to cut costs by using lower quality products, that's fair.
In the end, wouldn't it be fairer to either price your products fairly or give your photos away for free?
White Balance so easy, even our 5 year old can do it.- Melissa Strickland
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