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Re: CCD vs. CMOS
  #22  
Old 10-08-2001, 08:43 AM
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Re: CCD vs. CMOS

Hi Rcurry and others thanx for giving a technical view. At least I have a better understanding of the physics behind each. What I meant about the film vs digital debate was that irrespective of the quality / complexity of the underlying technologies involved, what I as a photog want above all else is image quality at a reasonable price. If dog poo works then so be it. The CCD vs CMOS argument becomes irrelevant once quality and power consumption issues are solved. IMHO CMOS seems at the present time to offer better quality with less power consumption, but circuitry developments will equalize the difference out anyway -- for manufacturing ease of production and cost are paramount. Does anybody care now whether Betamax was a better system than VHS if the VHS recorders today are of acceptable quality. (And with recordable DVD on the way this is also an irrelevance. -- in fact to stray slightly off topic a new service is available on Satellite TV in the UK where you even record a TV program / movie without having a recorder at all -- it's stored offline on the Satellite TV station's disks - a sort of VOD - Video on demand type of service, and you can then access it via your Satellite control box) -- now link this service into a digital camera and WOW -- storage itself becomes irrelvant and you have your instant transmission to your paper --- another topic
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(Added -- For UK users who are interested the service is described on SKY PLUS -- BSKYB's satellite service in UK and Irish republic. I don't work or have any affiliation to SKY television but just posting this info for anybody who is interested).

[ October 08, 2001: Message edited by: raptor ]
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Re: CCD vs. CMOS
  #23  
Old 10-08-2001, 08:22 PM
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ThomasSapiano ThomasSapiano is offline
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Re: CCD vs. CMOS

quote:
I can imaging a scenario where CMOS looses however. This is the BETA vs VHS scenario. 99% of the worlds imager R&D is going into CCD. That makes it cheaper and more rapid advancement towards meeting "consumer" perceptions such as 35mm equivalent sensor size. CMOS may never reach enough economy of scale to beat it.


Yes and no [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] For the most part, economy of scale is one of the big reasons why CMOS has an advantage over CCD processes. The same CMOS process used to generate the D30 images is being used for electronics fabrication in a lot of other industries. Every PC, scanner, photocopier, video camera and heck, most of the rest of CCD based cameras, all use dozens of CMOS components.

What is unique is the particular design of the image sensing CMOS chips and generating CMOS die sizes as huge as we are dealing with. However, the underlying process is the same as all of that other stuff and is one of the reasons why CMOS is such a promising technology - especially for companies like Canon with interests in a lot of different areas. Once they refine their processes, any microprocessor fabrication facility in the world should be able to make these imager chips for Canon - as opposed to the small handfull of facilities capable (and experienced) at producing CCD chips. Right now, however, CMOS facilities may be partially renescent of building such large imagers because of the low yields they'll get, and the unpredicability of such an arangement.

As for the quality of the imagers, the inherent differences between CCD and CMOS are much smaller than the differences between the designs of each particular imager family. The D30 doesn't produce great images soully because it has a CMOS sensor, it produces great images because Canon created an excellent imager that happened to use the CMOS process. All that extra logic does in fact all but eliminate noise generation along the readout stage, however it also takes up a larger portion of the sensor leaving less for light detection (and hence decreaseing the SNR and generally increasing noise in the image at any given ISO). Its all a matter of balancing all of the factors to get the result you want - which process you use is a significant part of that, however it is far from the only one.

If people are seeing similarities between D1 images and 1D images it isn't because they're both CCDs, its because they appear to be from the same imager family (likely from Sony). Rob pointed this out in his review, and it does seem to be true. They both exhibit similar noise problems, they both have an 11.5 micron pixel size, they're both Interline Transfer type, etc. The banding problem is a syncing problem that was caused by a bad oscillator in the original D1, so it should be fixed in the final product - but is something small that would be expected in a prerelease version of the camera. For the most part, the 1D sensor seems to simply be an expanded D1H array. Of course, the manufacturer has had several months to touch it up, so there is likely some other small improvements but it seems to share the same fundamental design.
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Re: CCD vs. CMOS
  #24  
Old 10-11-2001, 09:18 PM
Ron C. Ron C. is offline
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Re: CCD vs. CMOS

Tsapiano,

I've worked in the semiconductor industry for nearly 20 years now so I'm very familiar with the fabrication and economics of CMOS. What I was refering to when I said "economy of scale" was the silicon process and manufacturing process as you point out but also the R&D return on investment.

First, the die size of a D30 imagers, let alone a full size 35mm sensor, is several times larger than the reticle of the steppers used to expose the wafers for even the most advanced microprocessors. These steppers are VERY expensive $10m+ (even more). So, although a CMOS imager may use the same silicon process rules as a microprocessor, it requires special equipment to produce it.

Second, it is very expensive to engineer and debug large semiconductors. More time can actually be spent in the validation phase (testing the device to ensure the design is correct) than in the design phase. This requires people and machinery. A high-end tester for these types of complex devices can cost several million $$'s.

So, to break-even the device has to be priced such and the volume must be such that the tens (or hundreds) of millions of dollars invested in design, testing and basic fabrication equipment can be paid back before it becomes obsolete.

CCD's have the advantage that there are lots of companies working on high-end imagers. They go into camcorders and mid-range digi-cams. Canon is the only one I know of that is working on high-end CMOS imagers. They are totally dependent on their own R&D.

In the case of the D-30 I estimate the COST to manufacture the CMOS imager, factoring in R&D, test, yield loss etc. over say, 500k units, is probably in $600-$800 range. A full size imager is probably 3x that.

THAT's why high-end digital cameras are so expensive.

Ron C.
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