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Re: CCD vs. CMOS
  #8  
Old 10-01-2001, 10:06 PM
Michael Martin Michael Martin is offline
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Re: CCD vs. CMOS

I think images from CCD cameras look better than the D30 CMOS images. In fact a lot of working pros share my view.
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Re: CCD vs. CMOS
  #9  
Old 10-01-2001, 10:21 PM
Rob_Galbraith Rob_Galbraith is offline
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Re: CCD vs. CMOS

One correction: the shutter speed in the 1D is controlled electronically in the CCD at all shutter speeds. The shutter itself of course has to be timed in some fashion so that its open when the CCD is reading light. The EOS-1D's shutter will of course stay open longer than 1/125, or it would be really hard to get 1/60, 1/30, etc, but it will never stay open shorter than 1/125 says Canon.
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Re: CCD vs. CMOS
  #10  
Old 10-02-2001, 07:21 AM
Ken_Bennett Ken_Bennett is offline
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Re: CCD vs. CMOS

IIRC is web shorthand for 'If I Recall Correctly.'

I knew that a lot (all?) consumer cameras used the CCD to control 'shutter' speed, but I made the apparently incorrect assumption that this was not as accurate as a real shutter. (Mostly based on the lousy exposures I got from my DC260 [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] .

I will be very interested to see some printed images from the new 1-D, especially offset images printed larger than a page. I think I have my employer convinced that we should spend a bunch of money on some 'real' digital cameras ( [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] ) to replace my 2 D-30 bodies, but I'm not sure that we can spend 10-12 grand on a stopgap measure, if the 1-D images aren't usable at really large sizes on magazine stock.

Ken
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Re: CCD vs. CMOS
  #11  
Old 10-02-2001, 07:26 AM
LesSchofer LesSchofer is offline
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LesSchofer 10
Re: CCD vs. CMOS

If you think about it, thee is a lot more going on in the CCD than filling up with light data and emptying it. Aren't the autofocus sensors on the CCD? Then there is the charging and uncharging to govern shutter speed. that's one busy little chip.
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Re: CCD vs. CMOS
  #12  
Old 10-02-2001, 07:35 AM
BradleyPhillip BradleyPhillip is offline
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Re: CCD vs. CMOS

Les,

The CCD used for AF is a different CCD (!) It's a small sensor that is usually located in front of and below the shutter and has it's own little mirror behind the main mirror to bounce light into it. (Remember the imaging sensor is behind shutter blades-- it can't 'see' to focus before exposure.)

bradley phillip
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Re: CCD vs. CMOS
  #13  
Old 10-02-2001, 10:21 AM
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Noel_Carboni Noel_Carboni is offline
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Re: CCD vs. CMOS

quote:
I think images from CCD cameras look better than the D30 CMOS images


You're entitled to your opinion. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

There are two major steps in generating digital images: Light is measured by the cells of the sensor, and intensive processing occurs to turn those measurements into a full-color image. CMOS vs. CCD comparisons address pretty much only the first.

In the first part - image capture - accuracy, sensitivity, and dynamic range of the imager are the keys. The more accurate, the better. Noise detracts from accuracy, so the less the better. Wider dynamic range is also generally considered better. Both the CMOS and CCD that Canon have chosen in their digital SLRs are pretty accurate and fairly noise-free, and the D30 and 1D appear to be about equally sensitive. How do the dynamic ranges compare? I don't know; anyone have the figures?

quote:
It was also commented on by another poster that aggressive noise reduction measures required were the cause of some of the exhibited CMOS image ìsoftnessî.


Regarding "noise reduction", Canon's soft images (more so in the D30, but in the 1D as well as compared with the competition) are solidly on the track of "less is better". They're not soft because of noise reduction. On the contrary, they're soft because they haven't been oversharpened/overprocessed by the camera! We have seen that, using good tools, we can sharpen a D30 image into something that looks very rich, crisp, and clean, even enlarged. There's no lost data due to noise reduction here. It's just plain ACCURATE data.

By the way, on examination I see definite elements of the D30's image processing algorithms in the 1D's images, though they appear to have been refined. Look closely at the Imaging Resource test target images and you'll see things that both of the Canons do near their resolution limits (e.g., horizontal aliasing of vertical lines) that other cameras don't. Don't get me wrong; Canon's got their act together here - those artifacts don't do much damage in real images. Indeed, they are generating better images in both cameras than I would have thought possible from a Bayer-patterned imager.

In all, it's obvious that Canon has designed their cameras to generate the best possible input to digital darkroom tools, rather than to be some kind of end-all final product creation tool. Bravo for that!

IMO, Canon has some brilliant folks in their Engineering department. This is an exciting time and I anxiously wait to see what they come up with next.

-Noel

[ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: Noel Carboni ]
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Re: CCD vs. CMOS
  #14  
Old 10-02-2001, 05:51 PM
Phred Phred is offline
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Re: CCD vs. CMOS

>They're not soft because of noise reduction.

Ok, please share the information you have regarding what effect noise reduction, and while we are on the topic, any other engineering issues (pixel size/shape, color masks/filter, color interpolation) have on raw unprocessed image quality (resolution, sharpness).

>On the contrary, they're soft because they haven't
>been oversharpened/overprocessed by the camera!

Ahhh, we are still having this chicken and egg discussion. Post processing and sharpening of course are only needed because of a pre-existing condition. One doesn’t have an infection because they haven’t taken antibiotics..

I’m not suggesting that allowing users to decide how best to use post-processing options (amounts, kinds and techniques) wasn’t the right choice for Canon to make. In fact sharpening artifacts, to my eyes, are much more unpleasant than a generally soft image. What would be a much better option would be to have an inherently sharp image, without false sharpening artifacts, to start with and then apply effects like soft filters if desired.

Phred
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